I have started to read through that section of this blog, and also other sites related to this subject. Few of them are same that you mentioned, but that book was unknown to me before. I already ordered the revised edition. Still wondering though is there a study comparing organic veganic farming to conventional farming in similar conditions? Of course yield is not all that matters, but it certainly is one very important factor. Vegatopia has quite massive database containing publications and studies that deal with veganic farming in one way or other, but I have just started wading through it.

The thing with that post by Savage Rabbit is that if you sell a lot of your produce, then you will be removing phosphorus from the cycle and can’t recycle or compost it nearly as efficiently as would be ideal. Of course there is phosphorus in nature, but as I understand it, there is not enough for continuous farming without adding it. Few days ago I watched a video also called Growing Green where Iain Tolhurst offered a field tour to the viewer. That video inspired me to sent couple of questions to him regarding yields of the farm and phosphorus.

I agree with the point that it is possible to farm succesfully without animals, but the thing I question for now is that can it be done efficiently enough without using industrial fertilizers? Maybe the current situation is past the point of saving the world, but seeking best (or should I say least worst) option to feed the world is still important for the sake of all life on this planet. I also agree with the part about current population. That makes it very very difficult to find a truly sustainable answer.

Veganic farming looks very promising on this aspect too, but I think I have to read quite a lot more about the subject before jumping too hastily to conclusions.

Thanks for your comment. Some good resources and links to thriving veganic farms can be found in our “busting myths: veganic permaculture” section (http://vegetarianmythmyth.wordpress.com/vegan-permaculture-ecovillages-busting-keiths-myth-once-and-for-all/). This includes one of the oldest and most successful CSAs in the US, Honeybrook Farm in New Jersey. One great book I’ve read re: veganic/stockfree permaculture is “Growing Green” by Hall and Tolhurt, which comprehensively outlines stock-free standards and procedures. It’s a great place to start. Also check out the Vegan Organic Network, Stockfree Organic Services, and Go Veganic.net. These sources talk about phosphorus, too. And Savage Rabbit has some interesting stuff to say about phosphorus here: http://bravelucky.wordpress.com/2011/03/14/keiths-myth-for-the-love-of-pele-compost/ .

I think one of the problems is that people are very wedded to the idea that farming can’t be done without animal products and so they never give it a chance. But where it’s been given a chance, it’s been very successful, and uses far far less land and water than animal permaculture. And it’s been done in many different bioregions and climates. This is similar to how people think veganism isn’t possible, but when they give it a chance, most folks realize it is. It’s about a conscious shift in paradigms, I think.

I don’t personally think that veganic permaculture, or any form of agriculture, can save the world. I don’t know of any forms of agriculture that can be mega-scale and still sustainable. Perhaps–and I hope– creative farmers will be forced to prove this wrong. I would be very surprised, given the sheer amount of land it takes to raise grass-fed animals, if they could do it without going entirely or almost entirely stock-free.

There are too many humans. The human population is simply unsustainable. I don’t have a perfect answer to this problem and I am skeptical of anybody who does. But what I *have* come to believe from everything I’ve read and learned, in the meantime, is the following: veganic permaculture, of all forms of agriculture, is the *most* sustainable, *is* entirely possible as proven by those who’ve done it, offers, by far, the *most* payoff in terms of energy input per yield, and is the least cruel in terms of its effects on both large scale ecosystems and individual beings. In an ideal world, we’d take that reality and run with it in the hopes of finding a solution to overpopulation that doesn’t involve the horror of mass human-die offs.

Thank you for interesting post. There is a few things I would like to discuss.

vegetarianmythmyth wrote:

“Veganic/stock free permaculture is a thriving practice all over the world. It seems many locavores are willfully ignorant of this fact, and I’m not entirely clear why. Veganic permaculture is by far the most sustainable farming practice. There are many books and internet resources on this if you need more information.”

Could you give some links that can provide numbers showing that veganic permaculture can thrive in large scale, and feed most of the world? I have tried to learn a little bit about this subject, but the problem seems to be lack of verifiable facts in many cases. Often there is vague claims, but the studies and convincing calculations are missing.

How about the issue with phosphorus? I know that animals aren’t the solution, but it is quite difficult to see providing food for 7 billion people without industrial fertilizers. I have understood it so, that the natural cycle of phosphorus is not fast enough for efficient food production, hence the need for fertilizers.

As a vegan, it would be nice to be able to believe that veganic permaculture can feed the world, but for the time being I’m somewhat skeptical about it.